Viral Fact Check: Al Kabeer Exports is Not a 'Hindu' Slaughter House

I came across a social media post recently which accused Hindus of being hypocritical on the issue of “cow slaughter”. As per the social media post, which has been spread as a viral post, most of the largest slaughter houses in India are run by Hindus or Sikhs and not by Muslims. As we know, as per Hinduism, cows are worshiped and are to be always protected. All the native religions of India have respected cows in similar manner. On the other hand, beef eating is prevalent among Muslims and hence the community is often accused of being disrespectful towards Hindus’ sentiments. Perhaps this social media post tried to “correct” the perception.

The social media post specifically mentioned about one “Al Kabeer Exports Pvt Ltd.” whose expert oriented slaughterhouse is based at Hyderabad. Here is the viral (fake) post which mentions that “all the directors of the company are Hindus”: 

Searching with Google, I came across this petition on Change.org asking it to be banned. The petition also mentions that most employees of this slaughter house are Hindus and the director of this company is a Hindu.

I searched with Google to find more about this company. I came across its official website which is: http://www.alkabeerexports.com/about/

The above company website clearly mentions that the company “is a Muslim (owned) company”. It also mentions that the company’s slaughterhouse in India “does not slaughter cows, bulls or bullocks”. It only slaughters buffaloes. Buffalo’s meat is also called “beef” and hence this confusion has been created.

The website also mentions that there are false pictures of this slaughterhouse shared on social media in order to defame the company. It also hosts a scanned image of Government of India certificate showing the name and picture of its Director who is a Muslim: 

Therefore, it is clear that the viral posts on social media including the pictures shared of the slaughterhouse and the religion of the director of the company, all are false information.

I am sharing this on my blog so that you are aware of this and in case you come across any viral social media post sharing false information about this company, you can share the correct facts and information about this.

- Rahul Tiwary

Personal: Donation for Temple

At our housing society in Pune, a temple of Dutt Bhagwan is being constructed. There was an old but small temple in which place a bigger temple is being constructed. I have contributed Rs 5000+ as donation for the temple + idol. And I feel happy about it. 

- Rahul Tiwary

Importance of Wearing Bindi

A 'bindi' or 'bindu' means drop or globule. In Indian/Hindu culture it is supposed to be a sacred symbol of the universe, depicted as a dot or the zero. Applied between the eyebrows, it is position of the sixth chakra, a place which is also the exit point of kundalini energy. Red bindu which women wear also symbolizes fire as per tantra. 

An author writes that while Muslim women in Pak/Bangladesh also wear bindi quite often it is comparatively rare in Indian Muslim women perhaps due to its religious significance. 

From health point of view, bindi is worn between the eyebrows where the pineal gland lies which is an important nerve center and applying sandalwood or ash keeps the nerves cool and conserves energy. But it helps in this aspect only if bindi is made of natural sources and not of plastic. 

The bindi also represents the third eye (of wisdom/enlightenment). The Nasadiya Sukta of the Rig Veda mentions the word vindu/bindu.

[Source: Books and online resources; Picture © Andre Susan]

Shri Ram Never Banished Ma Sita to Forest

Ramayana, Rama's journey or Rama's way was originally told to the world by sage Valmiki. Valmiki is revered as Adi Kavi, i.e. world's first poet, for he wrote Sanskrit's first shloka. Valmiki authored Ramayana which is called Valmiki Ramayana, one of the two greatest epics of Bharat (India). In Valmiki Ramayan, Rama is not referred to as God but is called 'The Supreme Man' (narapungav). Valmiki tells the story of Prince Rama of Ayodhya, who leaves claim on the throne in order to obey his father and goes to live inside the forest where his wife is abducted by mighty king of Lanka, Ravana. Rama raises an army consisting of monkeys (Vanara Sena) and other animals of the forest, invades Ravana's Lanka and brings his wife back after killing Ravana in a battle. Valmiki Ramayana does not tell anything like Ram abandoning his wife Sita later in his life. 

It is said that Great Sage (Maharishi) Valmiki was contemporary to Rama. It is said that his original name was Ratnakara who was reformed and did great penances taking Lord's name. He was lost in such deep penance that an anthill grew around him and hence he is called as 'Valmiki', literally meaning 'one who sits in an anthill' in Sanskrit. Rama met Valmiki during his period of exile and had interaction with him. Later on, Valmiki taught Ramayana to Lava and Kusa, Ram and Sita's sons. 

There is a popular perception that Rama abandoned Sita and sent her to live in the forest because people had started to put doubts on her purity since she had stayed for many years in a faraway land of Lanka inside captivity of Rakshanas King Ravana. But the matter of fact is that Valmiki does not tell anything like this. Also, great scholars have called this perception of exile a piece of imagination. 

I would quote noted scholar and freedom fighter C. Rajgopalachari in his book 'Ramayana'; Epilogue; from Pages 475-476:

“I have followed the story of the Price of Ayodhya as told by Vaalmeeki. There was a legend current among people that after recovering Seeta, for fear of scandal, Raama sent her away to live in the forest. This pathetic episode must have sprung from the sorrow-laden imagination of our women. It has taken shape as the Uttarkaanda of Raamaayana... how can we comment on a work composed thousands of years ago and coming down to us in palm-leaf manuscripts subject to corruption?"

K. R. Sundararajan, professor of theology at St.Bonaventure University in New York, writes in his book "Hindu Spirituality: Vedas Through Vedanta, Volume 1", Page 106-107 [here]:

"Uttara Kaanda is considered by scholars to be a larger addition to the orignial story of Valmiki, possibly added during the third century AD. many scholars also believe that there are interpolations in the first book, especially those passages which depict Raama as a human manifestation of the god Vishnu, which could be assigned to the first century AD. It is generally held that Ram in the "original" Valmiki epic was depicted only as a human hero and that those passages, mainly in the Baal Kaanda, where his divine roots are traced and his links with Vishnu emphasized, are to be considered later additions to the story. However, these interpolations, which were made shortly after the period of Valmiki, show us something signigicant about the Hindu perception on Rama. Ram is no ordinary hero; rather he is superhuman and his story, the Ramayana, is a sacred story."

Several versions of Ramayana exist because characters of Ramayana became part of people's life and consciousness and all creative writers, poets, and artisans tried to present the characterizations in different shades and forms using their creativity. During the 12th century AD, Kamban wrote Ramavataram in Tamil basing his text on Valmiki Ramayana. During early 14th century Saptakanda Ramayana was written in Assamese by Madhava Kandali. Valmiki's Ramayana also inspired the Sri Ramacharit Manas by Tulasidas in 1576, an Awadhi language epic written in Bhakti tradition. Gujarati poet Premanand wrote a version of Ramayana in the 17th century and Ramayana was also written in Marathi by Sridhara in the 18th century. Not even Hindus, but Muslims have 'Mappila Ramayana' which deals with the story of Sri Rama, part of Mappillapattu, a genre of songs popular amongst the Muslims in Kerala and Lakshadweep. Buddhist have their own variant of Ramayana, which perhaps was used to propagate their own ideas like celibacy and denouncing marriage. There is also a Jain Ramayana. But the fact remains that all others were written after Valmiki Ramayana. Some authors and poets only elaborated and developed the characters from Valmiki's epic, while some totally changed the story or added completely new portions, which were at times not much appreciated by some others. 

The following is mentioned on HARE KRISHNA-HARE RAM [website] and also [here]: 

Many Hindus, like the followers of Vaishnavism, consider the entire section of Uttar Kand in Ramayana to be interpolated, and thus they do not accept the authenticity of the story claiming that Sita was banished. A general narration of Ramayana does not state it so. It says that Sita later lived in her father's kingdom of Mithila with her sons Lava and Kusha as per the North Indian (especially in present day Uttar Pradesh and Bihar) custom that children be brought up in their nanihaal, or maternal grandmother's place. Sita and her sons later lived at Valmiki's ashram for the boys' education and military training.

The whole of Valmiki Ramayan is presented in translated form at the website: http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ This website also quotes a book by Ramakrishna Mission and mentions: 

While stabilizing the original text of Ramayana, historians surmised that portions of two Books [Kaandas], namely Book I, Bala Kaanda and Book VII, Uttara Ramayana (not listed above) are later additions - "The first and the last Books of the Ramayana are later additions. The bulk, consisting of Books II--VI, represents Rama as an ideal hero. In Books I and VII, however Rama is made an avatara or incarnation of Vishnu, and the epic poem is transformed into a Vaishnava text. The reference to the Greeks, Parthians, and Sakas show that these Books cannot be earlier than the second century B.C......" [The cultural Heritage of India, Vol. IV, The Religions, The Ramakrishna Mission, Institute of Culture]

Two other very good points are mentioned at this [blog]: 

There are two proofs that Uttar Kand in Valmiki Ramayan is not the original part of Ramayan and it has been added later:  

1) Fal-Shruti evidence: Fal-shruti of a book (of religious importance) describes that what spiritual or other benefits one can get after reading that book or chapter. Exactly fal-shruti is either given at the end of a book or at the end of each chapter in some books. In valmiki Ramayan we can see that fal-shruti is given at the end of yuddh kand and not after each chapter. And that also describes the importance of reading whole RAMAYAN not yuddh kand alone. It means that the whole book ends with the end of yuddh-kand. But when the fal-shruti describes the benefits of reading RAMAYAN and Ramayan ends with it, why would the book proceed again with Uttar Kand? 

(2) Difference in language: When linguists tested the language of Valmiki Ramayan, they stated that there is a clear difference in the language of uttar-kand and the language of rest of the Ramayan. It seems that there is a difference of minimum two centuries between them.

While going through many references and texts and reading what great scholars like C. Rajgopalachari have said after having first hand experiences of reading authentic religious and historical texts, I would like to conclude personally that Uttar Kand seems clearly a later addition to the original text and we should not criticize anything basing our arguments on the stories mentioned in it. 

- Rahul Tiwary 

Note: Views expressed are personal and do not represent views of any person or organization associated with the author. Author is not responsible for authenticity of the references and websites mentioned as source. 

Why do Ladies Sing ‘Gaali ke Geet’ (slang-songs) during Marriage Ceremonies?

One of my Marathi friends went to attend his friend’s marriage in Banaras (Varanasi), UP and came back surprised. He asked me “Tumare side me shaadi ke samay gaali ke gaane kyon gaye jate hain?” (Why do they sing gaali (slang) songs during marriage ceremonies?)

The practice of singing taunting slang songs during marriage is prevalent in many parts of India. It can even be seen in Hindi movies, when bride’s friends sing that kind of songs to taunt the bridegroom and his friends/relatives. The usual practice is that the ladies on the bride’s side sing such slang-songs when the baarat (bridegroom’s party) arrives at the groom’s place. It is an interesting part of “welcome” ceremonies. It creates a funny situation, often embarrassing for the bridegroom and his friends. Such songs provoke groom’s side too and even they can answer the taunting songs with their own taunting songs thrown back towards the bride’s side. At times it becomes a curious pitted battle between the two sides. The reason why such a practice exists is not difficult to understand. Most importantly it “breaks the ice” between the two parties. As not all friends/relatives of bride and groom know each other, and this kind of a battle results in they dropping their ego and connecting with each other. At times, memories of such gaali-wars remain with both sides for a long time. Whenever they remember those, they can’t stop without smiling…

It is also to remember that this custom of singing slang-songs is only a part of the gamut of marriage ceremonies which involve lots of fun and adventures. For example, friends of the bride steal the shoes of the groom and they won’t return them back until the groom pleads to them (and of course sheds some weight from his purse). Next, the girls do “dwaar-chhekaai” when they cover the door and won’t allow the groom to enter the house. They will let him in only if he pleases them with whatever they demanded, for example singing a song, telling them a joke, or again, giving them some currency notes! Such teasing and harassing not only lightens up the environment, but also makes the ceremonies adventurous and fun. (May be psychologically this helps the bride-side to cope up with the sorrow of their daughter leaving them forever for a new place/family.)

Returning back to (gaali) slang-songs; as I said, it is part of the “welcome” ceremony alone. Afterwards when actual puja or hawan starts when sacred light is lit and offerings are made to gods after invoking the deities, such slang-songs are never repeated. When puja starts, ladies sing “mangal-gaan” (auspicious songs). There is a very clear distinction between the slang-songs (gaali ke geet) and the auspicious-songs (mangal-geet) which are sung as part of the marriage ceremonies. If we forget their distinct purpose and don’t notice the phase and time of the ceremonies when these are sung respectively, we would probably misunderstand the intentions involved…

While I explained this to the extent possible to my friends who had questioned it, I wanted some backing. Today, I got what I needed. (It is said that whenever you have doubts, read out random pages from our holy scriptures and you will get the answer.) Today, I read a page of Ramcharitmanas written by Tulsidas (published by Gita Press, Gorakhpur, with Hindi translation) and it gave me exact evidence and explanation behind this custom.

The following verses from Tulsidas’ Ramcharitmanas (baal-kaand) tell about the marriage ceremony of Shiva and Parvati:

“Vividh paanti baithi jevnaara| Laage parusan nipun suaaraa||

Naarivrind sur jewant jaani| Lagin den gaarin mridu baani||”

Meaning in Hindi:

“Bhojan karne walon ki bahut si pangaten baithin. Chatur rasoiye parosne lage. Striyon ki mandaliyan devtaon ko bhojan karte jaankar komal vaani se gaaliyan dene lagin.” ||4||

Meaning in English:

“They (gods in groom-side) sat down in many rows to eat. Smart waiters started to serve the food to them. When groups of ladies (from bride’s side) saw the gods eat, they started to sing slang-songs in soft voices.”

Next verse is like this:

Gaari madhur swar dehin sundari vyingya Vachan sunaavahin|

Bhojan karahin sur ati vilambu vinodu suni sabu paavahin||

Jewant jo badhyo aanandu so much kotihun na parai kahyo|

Achwai dinhe paan gavne baas Jahan Jaako rahyo||

Meaning in Hindi:

“Sundar striyan meethe swar me gaaliyan dene lagin aur vyangya bhare vachan sunaane lagin. Devgan vyangya sun kar bahut sukh Anubhav karte hain, is lie bhojan karne me badi der lagaa rahe hain. Bhojan ke samay jo anand badha woh karodon much se bhi nahi kahaa ja sakta. (Bhojan kar chukne par) sabke haath-muh dhula kar paan diye gaye. Fir sab log, jo jahan thahre the wahan chale gaye.”

Meaning in English:

Beautiful ladies started singing slang-songs and speaking taunting jokes in sweet voices. The gods were pleased with the humor in their songs and hence they were taking longer time to finish their food. The pleasantry spread during the time of food was such that it can’t be described even by 10 million mouths. After they finished their food, they were offered water for cleaning hands and then they were served with beetle leaves (paan). After that everyone went back to their place where they had stayed.

(Notice that the custom to offer paan to our guests has survived thousands of years of time; it was present during Shiva-Parvati marriage and is present even today.)

After one more verse, Ramcharitmanas tells that when marriage ceremony started with Vedic methods, the ladies started singing “mangal-geet” (auspicious songs). This is the exact sequence in which the custom is still followed in the present times.

So what do we conclude? I think after seeing this episode from Sri Ramcharitmanas, we understand that this custom is very old. Even gods (all gods including Vishnu and Brahma had come as part of Shiva’s baaraat) and Rishis accepted this gesture of slang-songs (gaali-ke-geet) in the right spirits. They didn’t mind being ridiculed in the ladies’ songs. When gods didn’t mind it but if we mind it today, it would show only our own lack of understanding of our culture and the true meanings behind customs and traditions. I am sure many of us don’t take this custom in the positive sense and would even ridicule UPites or those regions where such a custom even exists today. I wish they showed a better understanding of this tradition.

Now a day our children are studying in English schools and imitate the Western way of life. It is not surprising if our ladies don’t even know a single traditional song to sing on any such occasion! When they can’t sing a “mangal-geet” also, it is highly likely that they won’t know or show any inclination to sing these slang-songs too! (Though this custom has survived in our Hindi movies and can be seen in many TV soaps also. It indicates that may be this custom will not die forever). But there are chances that this custom can die, like many other harmless customs and traditions are on the verge of becoming extinct since they don’t fit with our young generation’s way of life and aspirations. But I would wish to see each one of us showing some respect in case we witness such customs and traditions still being practiced…

I strongly believe that today there is the greatest need for us to spread the true meaning of our religion (Hinduism), its customs, our culture and everything around it. If people don’t know true meaning behind the customs and abandon those, they are not totally at fault! I hope the above elaboration and quotation from Sri Ramcharitmanas would have been an eye-opener for many. Let us all prove that we care for our culture and traditions and trying to know the real meanings of things is part of that care…

Note: I have written the above article using my little experience and exposure. Your comments sharing your knowledge on this issue are highly welcome.

(Kumar Rahul Tiwary)

School of Hinduism (Discussion-1 on Lesson-1)

This discussion followed after one quote which I posted within School of Hinduism (Lesson-1)

Original post:

Hindus are advised against reading the Mahabharata inside their homes for the fear that ideas in that book such as brothers fighting over property will pollute family values. They prefer reading the Ramayana because in it brothers never fight over inheritance. The principle underlying this custom is called "sympathetic or imitative magic". According to this events in a household are influenced by the ideas expressed in sacred symbols, rituals and narratives. That is why during marriage and childbirth symbols associated with fruition and fertility and opulence are placed in all corners of the house.

# Friend1:

IMHO it is just superstition born from ignorance. Mahabharata teaches us some very important things, one of them being not to fight over inheritance. But most importantly, it shows how elders can fail : fathers, teachers, etc. It shows theoretical knowledge is useless : like drona, bhishma, etc. I personally feel that it is very relevant for today, given that it was written on the eve of kalyug.

Just have a strong attachment to it :)

# Me:

It shows even God has to take up means which were considered adharma, in order to win and establish dharma. drona was killed by yudhisthira's white lie, karna by trick against kshatriya's dharma, duryodhana killed by hitting below belt, not to mention insult to draupadi while her husbands lost her in gamble. Mahabharata was a dark time, no one, not even Krishna could remain to path of true dharma. If it teaches us to abandon fair play and kill bad people after becoming bad ourselves, it is debatable

In a symbolic tale, all pandavas except yudhisthir die before reaching swarga because they had flaws. yudhsthr himself had to spend a day in nark. krishna dies because of gandhari, curse who lost al her sons. not one character in mahabharata is flawless. this is why it has more negatives than positives for the common man. but in ramayana many are flawless, its lessons serve as our ideal.

more than anything else, ramayana tells what ideal brother, wife, husband, father, friend and bhakt could be. it is not the same in mahabharata. because of this ramayana is our ideal and worthy of reading by whole family... btw what do yoy think are lessons from mahabharata for family values?

also, if you can plz explain why you think bhisma's knowledge was theoritical? imo if there is one character who remained on the path of dharma from the beginning till end, it was bhishna. because of his fear kauravas didnt play as evil as they were... but first, lessons from mahabharata for family values...

# Friend1:

i have no dispute with what you say. Its like this. To bat well, I must know the right technique. But a good teacher must also teach the results and consequences of the bad technique. Mastery and perfection is achieved with equal knowledge of both good and bad. To know only the good is incomplete knowledge.

The lessons from mahabharata are very deep. For example, it is common to see in family disputes one of sons is uncomprimising. Parents keep saying "For us all are equal". Mahabharata illustrates the consequences of such action on part of the elders : its the end of the vansh or ancestral tradition. We see this all around. Mahabharata has a lot of bitter lessons, which I agree are not for everybody.

After all, Lord Krishna did appeal to Dhritrashtra, who was the king, and invested with all authority to stop the war. Thus he too was responsible. The relevance to today is self evident.

As for flaws, Mahabharata is guidance for mankind in the Kali Yuga. Not to say Ramayana should not emulated. One must have knowledge of all.

#Me:

Your point is good... ramayana and mahabhrata are from different times which have different values... even definitions of dharma are diff in the times. but when we want an ideal, it should be flawless, having perfection... people may call it unreal but ideal has to be that much higher... like we try for 100 but get 90 and we are still better than f we tried fotr 70 and ahieved 69... i agree that there are many lessons from mahabharata but as an ideal to aspire for, Ram Rajya is our ideal...

#Friend1:

No doubt. Ram Rajya is the ideal. But even in Ram Rajya, we shall still teach our kids about demons. To keep them away from it, will only make them fall into it. Free will is essential.

#Me:

right... just for reflection, in Ramayana i think the barbarians were termed rakshasas.... so easy to identify and eliminate... but in mahabharata times it was so difficult to discriminate between manava and rakshasa... like kansa was a rakshasa or human? duryodhana could very well be a rakshasa if present in ramayana times... even pandavas who gambled and put wife on bet, even before that they shared one wife, all were against dharma during ramayana times...

But we have very good examples of great family values from mahabharata... pandavas were ideal sons... draupadi was almost an ideal wife... pandavas were ideal sons towards mother... krishna balram ideal brothers... krishna arjuna ideal friends... bhishma ideal son for his father... bhishma's great vow an ideal... arjuna rejecting menaka for good reason... krishna's ideal role as a diplomat... on the other side there are so many nonideal characters showing us what not to be...

#Friend2:

Sorry to participate and disagree with everything, most flawed character in Ramayana was Ram himself, the one who outed his own wife, based on some stupid low life. If this is the family value ram raja gives no wonder, in India women empowerment needs to be fought for.

#Me:

Friend I have done some research and read much on this. The portion where Ram deserts Sita comes in uttar ramayana which is not authentic. Most authentic tale of Ram's life is as written by Valmiki who lived himself during Ram's time. And his Ramayana doesnt mention anything like this. I have read C. Rajgopalachari's Ramayana too which he had written after much research himself. He says that this part of Sita's exile seems to have come afterwards in folk tales due to women's fears and C. Rajgopalachari clearly says that Sita's exile is not there in oldest scriptures and has been added afterwards... So learned that we are we should not believe in any such stories... Also in the stories and fictions which mention this episode, they said Raja Ram left Queen Sita because Praja didnt want her. He never gave his wife away, so he never remarried and when in yagya he was needed to sit with his wife, he sat with Sita's golden idol... when Sita left this world he too enteres the river...

So for all practical purposes Sita's exile is an unauthentic story which entered our folklore and should not be taken  seriously to make our opinion... Ram has always been the perfect husband... and i think we should correct the mistaken opinion of as many people as possible...

# Friend1:

Lord Ram was not only a husband : he was also a king, a father, etc. The part in uttar ramayana is the portrait of an ideal king. The first part is ideal student, then ideal son, then ideal husband, then ideal warrior, finally ideal king, and last ideal father. Further, he did not take another wife during the time, and pined for Sita only, and loved only her. The message is that an ideal ruler should be above reproach, and must listen to what his people want. If Sita lived in an ashrama, Lord Rama too lived in great sorrow during this time. Just bcoz he was living in a palace can be no comfort. He was not exactly gambling the nights away if thats what you think.

December 18, 2011 at 12:01am · UnlikeLike · 2

The idea is that of the bond that the two shared. Both grieved for the loss of their beloved. Neither was attached to wealth and power. It is an ideal that is naturally hard for us to grasp in this Kalyuga.

#Me:

You are very right... thanks a lot for putting it so well... Even in the later versions and additions where Ram is shown to leave Sita,i is reprentation of an ideal King... An ideal king has to make personal sacrifices if the people so want... queens were examples to whole public and when people started susecting her on her purity, to make good example, Ram is shown as leaving Sita... but he is never shown to be himself suspecting her or having mistrust... This dilemma of choosing between

December 18, 2011 at 12:11am · LikeUnlike · 1

This portion even though unauthentic shows the dilemma or conflict between different duties or dharmas...

Some more good examples from mahabharata... Karna is ideal daani, krishna ideal brother to draupadi, vidur ideal counsell, ghatotkach ideal son to bhim, abhimanyu great kshatriya, gandhari ideal wife... karna ideal friend to duryodhana... and so on... if we think we can find so many inspirations... but in totality Ram rajya is ideal for family values and culture...

#Friend3:

Concept of ramarajya doesn't fits well in today's society. Mahabharata is more appropriate. Even in Ramayan not everyone was ideal, kaikayi for instance.

he only perfectly ideal character in Mahabharat was karna. Others were ideal too but their ideals came out of teaching, belonging and convenience. Karna was the only character who had choice to change his alliance but he did not do so out of his friendship to his friend. He even donated his arms knowing fully well that this is deception. If it were Arjuna, I am sure Krishna might have helped him to dodge the situation.

Bhishma, Drona, Gandhari, Dhritrashtra all suffered due to their lack of conscience. I somewhere read about theortrical knowledge among comments. Thats explanable. Doesn't matters who is right or wrong, no one has got authority or right to insult a woman neither in public nor in private. What happened with Draupadi, was not the fault of her husband or duryodhan. All the elders who were present there were even more responsible for that. It was wrong on Drona's part, if he cannot instill good manners in his pupils he shoud have stopped them with all his authority.

It was wrong on Bhisma's part, he was the eldest and most experienced member of the family and he should have used his powers. Even after that they had a choice, both Bhishma and Drona should have abstained themselves from the war. Being a teacher (Drona)and being eldest of the family(Bhishma) they were supposed to be neutrals.

#Me:

For Karna, as i said he was ideal daani and ideal friend to duryodhana... or but his friendship was more loyalty than friendship. a good friend is a good adviser... but alas he always advised duryodhana to start war and was part of adventures to kill pandavas by trick. so he is never an ideal friend anyone can aspire for.. on the other hand he is ideal when it comes to loyalty. next he remains hateful and full of vengeance all through.. he was not the only lost royal in the family...

Vidura was exactly his case a generation back...not owned up legally... but he remained peaceful and balanced... karna was never balanced, though full of kshatriya valore but unthoughtful and quick and always ready for war... popular modern literature and fiction tries to make him a hero as people love underdogs but we need to read original classics to understand characters properly and fully...

For draupadi's incident and bhishma... as we know dhritirashtra returned all the kingdom kauravas won in gamble just after that event... it happened due to bhishma's pressure.. without bhishma's presence as keeper of dharma duryodhana wud have killed pandavas long time back. he and elders did all they cud, but there are limits. on draupdi if her husbands were wise enough to put her for gamble it was no business of others to interfere.. in that time also some women were keeps and if pandavas wanted

If pandavas were ok with letting their wife be slave of duryodhana, who were others to object? of course Krishna came to object and he saved draupadi... in the epic of mahabharata it was krishna who played role of keeper of dharma, if others cud do it he never had to take Avatar!

Bhishma and Drona could not be neutral to the war until they followed dharma... they were bound to protect the throne and pandvas were attacking it... dhritirashtra was the king and duryodhana was yuvaraj, they had to side with the throne... if they sided with pandavas or didnt support kauravas they wud not be kshatriyas and lose their honor...but they had to side with evil. in mahabharata it is shown as conflict between dharmas and ordinary morality vs higher morality...

You are right that kaikai was not ideal. people know the ideal characters in ramayana and they are flawless... like Ram, Sita, Bharat, Lakshman, Hanuman, Angad,... The character of Kaikai is there in Ramayana to test the character of Ram... if there was no kaikai or manthara Ram wuld not have achieved that much height and fulfilled purpose of his avatar... Vishnu had taken birth as Ram to eliminate rakshasas including ravana and all that happened was part of maya.in m.b. no 1 is flawless

#Friend1:

On the question of bhishma and drona, i would go with shweta. they were the elders, and if they had taken a stand the war would never have happened. Even then were it to happen, at least the elders would have done their duty. But in Mahabharata, none of the elders follow their duty

If we accept the dictum of "no action is also action", the elders were the most responsible for the war.

The actions of elders were shameful regarding draupadi. We must remember that any private deal if illegal or immoral can be nullified by the state. That is the duty of the king. Yet such a shameful act happened in the royal court.

Actually, these books are meant to illustrate certain things to us. The fact that Ved Vyas put Drona and Bhishma in the losing faction, opposing the Lord, should leave no doubts as to the intended meaning

#Me:

Duryodhana had gone to Draupadi's swayamvar and Drupadi had insulted him calling him Andhe ka Beta. So Duryodhan wanted to take revenge on her and hence the insult. Next if we start judging, elders of Gangeya who became Bhishma should have fought and protested against him for his "illegal and immoral" act of kidnapping 3 daughters of Kashiraj? I fear we should not judge that time and kings' ways from the ethics of our times. In a way, each character of MB paid price for his or her karma.

That court of Hastinapur where Draupadi was insulted represented all that was wrong with that time. When the bad guys are at their evil best, good guys lose their mind, protectors and elders confuse dharma and become mere spectators, when king is blind, and humanity in draupadi's form is insulted, Bhagwan has to come on earth to cleanse all the rot... only He can do it and he show us what is dharma and what is evil...

Ramayana: A Love Story

Ramayana can be taken in many ways, but I think it’s also a love story. It’s a love story of a prince who had to be separated from his wife when already banished from his kingdom and then he fights with evil forces and hardships to find and regain his love. When Seeta was abducted by Ravana and Ram was gathering army of monkeys and bears, at one point of time he says something like this, “They say that with passage of time our love and pain of separation calms down, but I have not felt any such relief…” How could he, when his love for Seeta was purest and divine? Rishi Valmiki describes it well. At another point, the prince says, “Whenever I see a beautiful thing, I feel how much Seeta would have enjoyed this!” And then he cries… The prince, who could move mountains and dry up oceans by his mighty arrows, cries in the memory of his beloved wife… At many places throughout Ramayana, the distressed Rama is shown to be consoled by his younger brother Lakshamana. Often Rama starts lamenting wondering how princess Seeta, his beloved wife and daughter of the great king Janaka, would be surviving amidst dreadful Rakshashis and demons. He is shown neither be hiding his feelings from his followers, nor letting his sorrow carrying him away from his righteous path. Seeta, on the other side, waits for her love every moment and spends every passing day in hope that that day would end her wait. Her love for Ram is so great and honourable that even for a moment she is not diverted.

Rishi Valmiki who was the first person to write about Rama’s story and to introduce Ramayana to this world, doesn’t mention anything about Sita’s exile to the forest after she and Ram had reunited, so we can take this for granted that once Ram restored Sita, they spent years of happy life together. As they say at the end of love stories: “And they lived happily ever after.”

After Ramayana, so many stories, poems, plays, and movies have been written and made, telling a love story in very similar lines: there are two lovers, and one villain; lovers get separated and hero fights to get back his love. In the end, they are reunited and live happily ever after… But no love story is as powerful, as divine and as elevating as the one between Ram and Seeta… It’s because Ramayana stands as a torch of light showing us the righteous way of life, and reminds us of the very high levels of moral standing that we should practice in life…

- Rahul